Jesus Found!

[Panterro]

If you have not heard the cave in which Jesus Christ was buried has been found in Jerusalem, claim the makers of a new documentary film.

If it proves true, the discovery, which will be revealed at a press conference in New York Monday, could shake up the Christian world as one of the most significant archeological finds in history.

What does this discovery mean for the religious myths that bind us and for the sustenance of the Resurrection ideal to Christians across the world?

Here is one link talking about it..

http://urbansemiotic.com/2007/02/25/...-in-his-grave/

Here is the stroy from the BBC

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6397373.stm

And the last link.. a Show will be presented on the Discovery Channel on the whole discovery.. =)

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2007/0...20070225073000

Please keep it civil.. but Discuss..

[Wyody]

Yow. Not a good day to be a doubter, eh?
I've been watching things like this for many years - or trying to - there's a lot that doesn't get put out there on the information highways.
Let me try and "perspective-ise" this:

We have a lot of quaint practices that have made their way into our religious "mainstream" practices - I'll list just a couple:
1) Sabbath became Sunday - not because any Bible directed it,
2) Christmas got placed on December 25th - not because our Jesus was born in December - but because the Saturnists and Sun-worshippers already had a celebration at that time - and it was convenient.
All I'm alluding to is that, Christianity has became many things it never was through man's manipulation of things.
That includes some of the things we believe that have lead to denominationalism. Things that just weren't there in the first place.
Now, they "maybe" find out Jesus was mortal. Crushing blow - except those who believe are still gonna believe and a way will be provided. It doesn't change the message. Repeat - It Doesn't Change the Message!!!
Better to be a believer and see occasional cause for doubt - than to be an Atheist and be dead-wrong!!

[Panterro]

I dont know if it matters, but I am a Pagan, not a Christian. That is if I had to put a name on my beliefs.

[Wyody]

Originally Posted by Panterro

I dont know if it matters, but I am a Pagan, not a Christian. That is if I had to put a name on my beliefs.

I don't think it matters. But I'm not the one (cough, cough) whose thoughts count.
Under almost any scrutiny, most of our "religions" are pagan in practice.
Plus, if there is such a thing as "judgement day", you can stand in front of me.

[Panterro]

http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/tomb/tomb.html

Better link with some evidance and debate there.. pretty interresting.

[the dufferz]

Ultimately it comes down to your belief.

Figure this. Many people claim that the Holocaust did not happen. We have photo's, eyewitnesses, film, trials etc. So an event that happened 60 years ago is being disputed.

Whatever "facts" that they try to bring up in this show will make those who don't believe that Jesus is God and rose from the dead feel justified, and those who do believe will say "where is the DNA? If the glove don't fit..."

For me, I am a believer. I will watch with interest, but I don't see myself walking away going "crap, wrong all these years!".

Just think, though of the impact of this guy.

He was an unknown until he was 30 (age of adulthood for a Jew...~snip comment~) He picked out 12 guys who where not educated. He spent 3 years walking around talking. He was executed, leaving 11 of the 12 uneducated guys behind.

From there a great religion was born. Believer or not, one must pause to wonder, if he was not God, then how? why? Can't say his diciples did it... ~edited~ they were not educated nor charismatic.

[Panterro]

Look Duff, I appreciate your viewpoint, but please leave your snide remarks on other forum members out of the discussion, I find the little digs here and there to be rather rude and child like, and there is no place for them here.

This has nothing to do with Belief.. this has to do with archaeology, not if Jesus was the son of god or not.

I find it interresting that they found his tomb, or what the evidance so far has proved to be his. You may want to read the links, or visit the last link I just gave to see they did do DNA test.

Go check it out.. its pretty cool..

http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/tomb/tomb.html

[kimbercuddles]

Panterro, out of curiousity, what led you to become a pagan? I am always interested in why people choose the way they do. Thanks for any information you are willing to post, I appreciate it.

p.s. If you are willing to reprimand Dufferz for comments towards Talmud, you might think about mentioning the same things to Talmud...he isn't necessarily known for his ability to communicate in a respectful, friendly way. Just a thought....

[Panterro]

Had he done so in this thread I would have.. Dont suggest I am picking favorites here. Stay on topic please.

I dont wish to discuss my beliefs in this thread. Lets just say I consider myself a pagan, due to my own research and life experiances...

[the dufferz]

Originally Posted by Panterro

Look Duff, I appreciate your viewpoint, but please leave your snide remarks on other forum members out of the discussion, I find the little digs here and there to be rather rude and child like, and there is no place for them here.

This has nothing to do with Belief.. this has to do with archaeology, not if Jesus was the son of god or not.

I find it interresting that they found his tomb, or what the evidance so far has proved to be his. You may want to read the links, or visit the last link I just gave to see they did do DNA test.

Go check it out.. its pretty cool..

http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/tomb/tomb.html

Panterro,

Please accept my apology for my comments regarding Talmud. I get a kick out of tweaking him, and it seems to be a habit that I need to break unless he is a participant. So, please accept the withdrawl of those comments.

I don't see how Archaeology can prove anything other than there were people buried there with names that could be assocciated with a family in the 1st century. Christians believed for hundreds of years that the shroud of tehran had the face of Jesus on it. Some still do, some don't, but it does not change the beliefs of people.

My point is that archaeology can do nothing but present a box with names on it, and a lot of "guesses" as to who is in the boxes. Can that possibly prove anything other than there were people buried there?

So, like I say, I will watch and judge based on what I see. If they try to claim that Jesus was buried there, or had a son or anything like that, then the producers will have shown their hand in an attempt to bring doubt to the "greatest story ever told". If they show the facts and have a balanced discussion as to what is found, both sides, then I will take the show for what it should be, archaeology and good debate.

We'll see.

THE dufferz

[kimbercuddles]

Originally Posted by Panterro

Had he done so in this thread I would have.. Dont suggest I am picking favorites here. Stay on topic please.

I dont wish to discuss my beliefs in this thread. Lets just say I consider myself a pagan, due to my own research and life experiances...

Panterro...never suggested you were picking favorites. I respect your views...was just curious. I'm disappointed that you won't share why you chose a pagan way of life. One of my best friends in San Antonio is an Agnostic and we have intense conversations regarding all aspects of this subject. This is a topic in which beliefs will probably be discussed, I would imagine, but I will honor your wishes. No offense intended...honestly.

[Panterro]

Originally Posted by the dufferz

Panterro,

Please accept my apology for my comments regarding Talmud. I get a kick out of tweaking him, and it seems to be a habit that I need to break unless he is a participant. So, please accept the withdrawl of those comments.

I don't see how Archaeology can prove anything other than there were people buried there with names that could be assocciated with a family in the 1st century. Christians believed for hundreds of years that the shroud of tehran had the face of Jesus on it. Some still do, some don't, but it does not change the beliefs of people.

My point is that archaeology can do nothing but present a box with names on it, and a lot of "guesses" as to who is in the boxes. Can that possibly prove anything other than there were people buried there?

So, like I say, I will watch and judge based on what I see. If they try to claim that Jesus was buried there, or had a son or anything like that, then the producers will have shown their hand in an attempt to bring doubt to the "greatest story ever told". If they show the facts and have a balanced discussion as to what is found, both sides, then I will take the show for what it should be, archaeology and good debate.

We'll see.

THE dufferz

They break down what proof they have, and all that pretty much on the site. I am sure there is more to it when the show aires. I am assuming your a Christian based on the phrasing of your replies. One of the reasons I am trying to keep this more based on the show and what it has to offer and less on the religious aspects.. I dont want it to become a your an idiot because you believe one thing, and im an idiot because I believe another kinda topic. Faith/religion is subjective to the person... each has thier own twist on what it is they believe, and there can be no winners in a debate on the subject.

Besides I am trying to practice something my grandmother once told me.. "never talk religion or politics in mixed company". After trying to here and a couple other places I have seen what takes place, and I dont want to argue and fight with everyone here.

By the way Apology accepted.. thank you.

Once we have seen the show, I welcome the debate to begin, I think it can be quite interresting.

[the dufferz]

Originally Posted by Panterro

They break down what proof they have, and all that pretty much on the site. I am sure there is more to it when the show aires. I am assuming your a Christian based on the phrasing of your replies. One of the reasons I am trying to keep this more based on the show and what it has to offer and less on the religious aspects.. I dont want it to become a your an idiot because you believe one thing, and im an idiot because I believe another kinda topic. Faith/religion is subjective to the person... each has thier own twist on what it is they believe, and there can be no winners in a debate on the subject.

Besides I am trying to practice something my grandmother once told me.. "never talk religion or politics in mixed company". After trying to here and a couple other places I have seen what takes place, and I dont want to argue and fight with everyone here.

By the way Apology accepted.. thank you.

Once we have seen the show, I welcome the debate to begin, I think it can be quite interresting.

Panterro,

You and I stand shoulder to shoulder on this though we would probably have very different views. You are so right though, there can be no winners but there can be many losers when this is debated in the wrong way.

Frankly I too am not interested in doing that battle either here or anywhere. I would rather have someone get to know me and who I am, then have good conversations about why I believe as I do.

Hopefully I can remember when the special is on so that a post discussion can take place.

Thanks for bringing the topic up. This will be interesting.... Ever thought about being a Moderator?

[RAINBOWWAVES]

I loved The DaVinci Code.

[Panterro]

I dont know if I would be the right choice, I would do it if asked because I like the community. But I am sure there are far better choices than me.

One thing hard about being a mod, I would assume is trying to stand outside the debate even if you feel strongly about something. I dont know if I can keep my big mouth shut.. lol.

[RAINBOWWAVES]

George Carlin>>>> Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man -- living in the sky -- who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do..And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time! ..But He loves you....

[Jenbar]

From the limited amount that I read about this, it's my understanding that this "discovery" automatically discounts the entire New Testament, correct? Being that *they believe* bones were found, he had a son, and was married. So, in that case - if I am correct, I would say it's a grand day to be a non-believer.

From what I hear though, the names "Jesus, Mary, Joseph" were extremly common names - so going by the found inscription, only (which is what they aren't currently basing all of this on, right?) doesn't necessarily reflect the outcome they are speculating on.

[Panterro]

They cover the name issue as well JEN. They have covered all the bases on this one, I am not an expert or anything, and dont have thier data to defend it, so I cant. All I can say is I find it interresting.

Just because his body is still here does not mean his spirit did not transend. I feel that because after so many days they came in and the body was not where they had left it originally, does not mean he was not moved to an unknown grave later on to protect him. He was after all a controversial figure back then, and graves were known to be robbed and defiled. And he may of had a family, I dont think that would of made him any less of a religious figure, I think he had humen needs.. hell if were all made in the image of God, then God also has humen needs. So where is that a problem? So what if he and Mary were married, from my understanding she was a whore and he made her an honest women by marrying her. If they had a son, where is the problem with that it seems it was in wed lock, so where is the sin in that, by Christian standerds that is. I dont think this discounts the whole new testiment.. just the notion his body left in the resurrection.

[PDXnative]

Originally Posted by Panterro

Had he done so in this thread I would have.. Dont suggest I am picking favorites here. Stay on topic please.

I dont wish to discuss my beliefs in this thread. Lets just say I consider myself a pagan, due to my own research and life experiances...

Cool!!! I consider myself an Agnostic Pagan. I have seen no proof of the major religions validity, but I can feel the energy of nature, and THAT is real.

I once belonged to a coven and a secret order..... they are no better than an organized religion. I was even baptised Christian in a holly roller church with people talking in tongues and doing exorcisms (really cool when you are 11), but all I saw from that was a World of guilt and fear. Believe or burn!!! It took me a long time to rid myself of their F'ed up influence!!!!

Better to believe what YOU think and feel is real, than to believe what people tell you to believe.

[Panterro]

I agree PDX.. seems we have both walked similure paths. I would love to chat with you about this.. but I dont think this is the place.. take care friend. I may stop back by once I get to Portland.. who knows maybe we can sit back and chill have a cup of java and laugh all about this stuff. See ya bud.

[PDXnative]

Yes, contact me when you get to town and we can grab coffee. If you can handle our coffee........ I will be happy to give you a tour of the town.

[RAINBOWWAVES]

Originally Posted by PDXnative

Cool!!! I consider myself an Agnostic Pagan. I have seen no proof of the major religions validity, but I can feel the energy of nature, and THAT is real.

I once belonged to a coven and a secret order..... they are no better than an organized religion. I was even baptised Christian in a holly roller church with people talking in tongues and doing exorcisms (really cool when you are 11), but all I saw from that was a World of guilt and fear. Believe or burn!!! It took me a long time to rid myself of their F'ed up influence!!!!

Better to believe what YOU think and feel is real, than to believe what people tell you to believe.

Did you see on Tv about that evangelist who is marketing spring water as miracle water? LOL...it is all so entertaining.

[the dufferz]

Originally Posted by RAINBOWWAVES

Did you see on Tv about that evangelist who is marketing spring water as miracle water? LOL...it is all so entertaining.

That would be Peter Popoff. He's no evangelist, just a scam artist that has been exposed clear back in the 80's for using a wireless receiver in his ear, and his wife would feed him the information about people that he could "heal".

Believe me that God will take care of guys like that in a very "special" way I am sure.

Personally I don't find this entertaining at all in that innocent people are being ripped off with the promise of wealth by the abuse of their "religious" beliefs (not a correct belief because God never promised anything like the crap he is selling). Reminds me a lot of what happened at Jones Town. Sad.

[RAINBOWWAVES]

Originally Posted by the dufferz

That would be Peter Popoff. He's no evangelist, just a scam artist that has been exposed clear back in the 80's for using a wireless receiver in his ear, and his wife would feed him the information about people that he could "heal".

Believe me that God will take care of guys like that in a very "special" way I am sure.

Personally I don't find this entertaining at all in that innocent people are being ripped off with the promise of wealth by the abuse of their "religious" beliefs (not a correct belief because God never promised anything like the crap he is selling). Reminds me a lot of what happened at Jones Town. Sad.

Yes that's right...it is so sad how ppl think they are buying a ticket to Heaven isn't it...i meant the evangelists are amusing...not the poor humble ppl who are in total desperation for salvation, something they can do on thier own, totally for free. It is said it would be easier for a rich man to crawl thru the eye of a needle then to walk thru the gates of Heaven?