Legalizing Drugs and other fun things....

[PDXnative]

So, this conversation started in another REALLY LONG thread and so I thought I would strip it out into its own thread as it is an interesting subject. We were discussing legalization of drugs and this is what I had to say:

Having all drugs legal may not be the best idea, but having drugs be a criminal offense is a very bad idea. A better solution is to give people an infraction for possession or use, like a speeding ticket, and if they become a repeat offender send them to rehab. Sending them to prison is just a waste of money and lives.

So, what is everyone's opinion on the legalizing of drugs or making drug use and possession a non-criminal offense?

Oops. I guess my title could mean a couple of things. I meant by the "and other fun things" that the topic may go off topic and did not imply that drugs are fun. I did not want to tarnish my online record by having this be taken in the wrong meaning......

[Wyody]

Jimmy Carter, while running for president and shortly after becoming president, probably said it best (referring to pot);
"We're making our children out to be criminals".
How and why anything that grows on this planet and given by the Creator (sorry Pagans) that doesn't even have to be processed in any way, no chemical additives, no boiling down - how they became illegal in the first place is a sad commentary on the times (late 1930's) and the influence of "over-the-top" religions unsubstantiated by biblical support.
As a society, we go back and forth on many issues - just like wide-lapels and chin-whiskers - things go out of fashion and come back in. Our moral stances do the same.
I don't like what they've done to pot. They've cultivated and manipulated it into a super-drug ... and that's not really a right thing to do. It grows. It is for us. It makes a fine poltice for deep muscle bruises.
The poor man will always need relief - here it is. From the first wine (mead, made from honey by, supposedly the vikings) to tobacco to hemp and things get categorized as wrong ... when they aren't.
For 4 decades, we've made our naturally curious young people criminals for trying and using pot, for buying and selling it. Shouldn't be this way - Pot is not a bad thing. It enhances the senses and thinking in a positive way for many. It causes muscle pain and lethargy for others. Old argument I know - but two drinks have a more detrimental effect than a simple and quick "buzz".
The money that has been spent to enforce this stupid issue; The lives that have been ruined - not by it's use - but by the enforcement is criminal. It should be in our yards - in it's natural form ... not in this high-tech-improved form. It does not lead to other drugs ... unless that person is going there anyway. It can - like other drugs - enhance also the negative psychological things that are already in our heads ... so can seeing a violent movie. Not the plant that's a problem ... it's the stigma and the other issues already present in some psyches.
And for God's sake, somebody go get Georgie high - this fool's killing us!!

[PDXnative]

I think the biggest "Gateway Drug" is alcohol. A friend of mine was drunk one night with a friend of his who happened to like heroin. He offered some to my friend who let him shoot him up and he OD'ed. He then left my friend to die in a doorway in downtown Portland. I know this may prove a point that drugs can kill, but so can alcohol. People get alcohol poisoning, they get into car accidents, fall out of boats and drown, fall off roofs, shoot themselves, etc. It impairs you to the point of doing stupid and dangerous things that can endanger yourself and others, yet it is legal and accepted in this country.

[Wyody]

Originally Posted by PDXnative

I think the biggest "Gateway Drug" is alcohol. A friend of mine was drunk one night with a friend of his who happened to like heroin. He offered some to my friend who let him shoot him up and he OD'ed. He then left my friend to die in a doorway in downtown Portland. I know this may prove a point that drugs can kill, but so can alcohol. People get alcohol poisoning, they get into car accidents, fall out of boats and drown, fall off roofs, shoot themselves, etc. It impairs you to the point of doing stupid and dangerous things that can endanger yourself and others, yet it is legal and accepted in this country.

I agree with you personally - but I'm not sure the studies bear it out - but I agree.
Alcohol has damaged more lives by it's use than almost anything I know ... at least until these "Crack and Crank" generations came - and that has just gotten more and more pathetic.
It's a symptom of societal illness. As is alcohol - as is almost anything if we wish to draw the tie-line.
At least, I don't think pot-heads believe any longer that their driving is "improved" with pot-use ... altho they actually do make better, more attentive drivers - just more easily distracted and too inconsistent with their driving speeds for traffic.

[kimbercuddles]

I think the work ethic has gone downhill...can you imagine if there were tons of potheads trying to function? Some of the people I knew who used to do pot said that it enhanced their creativity...but most of the ones I knew would just zone out, eat and not want to get off their lazy butts.

Crystal meth, crack, heroin, cocaine, etc., should not be legalized, in my opinion, for obvious reasons.

I'll have a couple of beers now and then, but I don't need anything to alter my mind to have fun. Part of the lure of alcohol is that as teens get older, it becomes a 'forbidden fruit'. Do you know that in the United Kingdom it's legal to give a 5-year old alcohol if you're on private property and a legal guardian? That's almost unbelievable to me.

[Wyody]

Originally Posted by kimbercuddles

I think the work ethic has gone downhill...can you imagine if there were tons of potheads trying to function? Some of the people I knew who used to do pot said that it enhanced their creativity...but most of the ones I knew would just zone out, eat and not want to get off their lazy butts.

Crystal meth, crack, heroin, cocaine, etc., should not be legalized, in my opinion, for obvious reasons.

I'll have a couple of beers now and then, but I don't need anything to alter my mind to have fun. Part of the lure of alcohol is that as teens get older, it becomes a 'forbidden fruit'. Do you know that in the United Kingdom it's legal to give a 5-year old alcohol if you're on private property and a legal guardian? That's almost unbelievable to me.

Being a musician and having hung with an "artsy" crowd for many years, I can agree with the creativity effect ... sometimes.
Also hating to sit on my butt, I can tell you that it makes you move from past experience - used to clean my house quick and quazily! Or any task that took physical application.
That was the old days - before they tampered with the natural strength of it - now, the word "blotto" comes immediately to mind - although must confess that at my age, the number of users I know has shrunk dramatically.
I also remember when cocaine used to be a "fun" drug - a diversion - with only a very few picking up any deep attachments to it. I was built backwards so, when I used it, it made me sleepy and very hungry. Again, look what they did to it! Made it so people can smoke it - get addicted to it. I guess I just didn't know any needle-freaks when I was younger.
Again however, will point out that powders have to be manufactured - even though one originates as a natural plant. In South America, outsiders are not even allowed to touch Coca leaves - but the natives will be walking thru the jungle chewing on the leaves all day - doesn't do a lot except rot their teeth and provide a "caffeine" style drive.
I get the impression these people who use crank are the same people who would snort "Drano".
Altho 5 yrs old seems preposterous, time to point out that in Europe and the Middle East, Australia, New Zealand and many other countries, they have never drank much water because of the quality - and so drink table wines from an early age - so, I'm not sure what to say about UK - except, that explains them better than anything in America explains George W.

[PDXnative]

Originally Posted by kimbercuddles

Crystal meth, crack, heroin, cocaine, etc., should not be legalized, in my opinion, for obvious reasons.

But should people caught in posession or using them be sentenced to prison? Should addicts be punished because they need help?

[Wyody]

Originally Posted by PDXnative

But should people caught in posession or using them be sentenced to prison? Should addicts be punished because they need help?

I find this question very perplexing.
On one hand - if our society did not breed so many ills then, there would be far fewer people becoming addicted to drugs as an escape or outlet.
In a near-ideal world.
On the other hand - in what other way are we to deal with them? We've all seen that a person is not about to quit anything until they decide it is time and seek help. Sometimes, long-term intervention is effective and sometimes, it isn't. I mean, toss a junkie in jail for 6 years and they come out clean. Thursday, they are back on junk.
We're proving nearly every day that our penal system is not the answer, our courts are not the answer, 5,357 tomes of rules and regulation are not the answer, God is not the answer (yes He is), so, the question becomes, to me ... "what is the alternative"?

[PDXnative]

Originally Posted by Wyody

I find this question very perplexing.
On one hand - if our society did not breed so many ills then, there would be far fewer people becoming addicted to drugs as an escape or outlet.
In a near-ideal world.
On the other hand - in what other way are we to deal with them? We've all seen that a person is not about to quit anything until they decide it is time and seek help. Sometimes, long-term intervention is effective and sometimes, it isn't. I mean, toss a junkie in jail for 6 years and they come out clean. Thursday, they are back on junk.
We're proving nearly every day that our penal system is not the answer, our courts are not the answer, 5,357 tomes of rules and regulation are not the answer, God is not the answer (yes He is), so, the question becomes, to me ... "what is the alternative"?

Our penal system is black and white and lacks grey areas. You cannot just have right and wrong and punish the wrong. There needs to be levels. Can you imagine going to prison everytime you got caught speeding or parked illegally? There needs to be a different system to deal with drug offences. It is doing nothing but overcrowding our prisons and turning recreational drug users into criminals with no chance of getting a good job or having a normal life again.

[Wyody]

Originally Posted by PDXnative

Our penal system is black and white and lacks grey areas. You cannot just have right and wrong and punish the wrong. There needs to be levels. Can you imagine going to prison everytime you got caught speeding or parked illegally? There needs to be a different system to deal with drug offences. It is doing nothing but overcrowding our prisons and turning recreational drug users into criminals with no chance of getting a good job or having a normal life again.

I agree with you - at least in concept.
This is what California used to be for!! 'Til the right-wing square-dancers got in the way!

Gad, here I go again ... but this is one of the flaws of Capitalist society. They determine that if a person is using drugs then, they're not working - or, if they're making money by selling or middling drugs then, the government is getting cheated out of taxes due - in which case that person is not contributing to the capitalist piggy-bank - which doesn't work for the system. So, even though a good quarter of the folks who work use drugs on an occasional or small scale for personal relief or release, they have somehow been categorized as enemies of "the system".
Here's a left-hand example of the scenario: We run apartments. There's an old joke among folks in the biz about drug-dealers. Now, we're all trained (mostly all) on how to spot, report and get rid of druggies by the Feds. However, the real problem is not having soft-drug users, the real problem is having a dealer 'cause - know what happens when you have a drug-dealer in your complex? The dealer is the only one who can pay their rent on time!! Everybody else is coming up with money for the dealer and letting their rent slide.
Legalize it all and some of the problem will disappear as some folks only do it to act anti-societal.
Teach some of these whacked-out super-stiff religious groups that the Bible and the lawbook can be two different things because some of these people ... some of our most twisted ... are really just acting out rebellious thoughts formed for years by the oppression of said religions.
In other words, legalize and the thrill will be gone - reducing it's effectiveness as a tool for some users.
Legalize it - stop making otherwise law-abiding citizens into criminals - this is deemed unconstitutional by our own constitution (no, I ain't gonna quote it - I'd have to go get my wife - she knows).
Eventually - maybe a full generation or two down the road - the numbers of people being torn up by drugs of any sort will be reduced. That shrinks the problem - maybe into something we can effectively deal with.
I don't know if there is a quick solution for our own generations.

[kimbercuddles]

Originally Posted by PDXnative

But should people caught in posession or using them be sentenced to prison? Should addicts be punished because they need help?

I figured you weren't going to let me get away without answering that. My instinct is to charge a heavy fine (given to rehab centers) to the people who get caught with pot, but no jail time unless they've committed another crime in addition. If someone is caught under the influence or with possession of a more potent drug; send them to mandatory rehab. Second offense; heavy fine and depending upon the circumstances, jail time. I'll probably get flak for this, also but there it is.

So Odie...you believe that it would be a good idea to legalize all street drugs?

Totally off subject but did you realize that possession is spelled with two sets of double s's? I've always considered myself decent at spelling and that just blew me away...didn't remember that one.

[Wyody]

Originally Posted by kimbercuddles

So Odie...you believe that it would be a good idea to legalize all street drugs?
:

Let me see here, did I say that? ... why, yes I did ... almost.
What I was first saying in this regard - and here's another translation - we've had a strangely over-the-top puritanical, controlling, manipulative religious structure in parts of America since it's inception. Came over on the boat with it. Has nothing to do with religion - has to do with puritanical, controlling, manipulative people. Has caused unreasonable wars for many centuries - perhaps even a millenium. It's caused as many or more problems as out-and-out atheism. Wipe that away going back a few hundred years and we'd have less problems.
Now, the second part where I actually proclaimed "Legalize it" refers mostly to pot. For kicks, read Genesis chapter 2, verse 1 & 2 ... even if it's in the King James version. This is the source and basis of why it should never have been illegalized in the first place.
Our "over-reactionary" tendancies cause many problems. Let me use Tobacco for an example:
Yo, ain't nothing wrong with tobacco. Ain't nothing wrong with almost nothing ... IN MODERATION. Big Tobacco companies started putting it in "needles" (factory pre-rolled cigarettes) in the early part of the 20th century. Mass production called for all sorts of additives, purifiers, strippers ... chemicals of all sorts. Before the "needle" there was only time to load and roll a very few cigarettes a day. The nicotine was not enhanced. A pipe is so unwieldy that ... traditionally, you had to wait for the end of your workday so you could sit down, load the pipe and relax for a few - once or twice a night. Wasn't abused. Native Americans use it for ceremony and gifting. Now, thanks to societal inteference, we've lost millions to cancer, emphyzema, heart disease ... and we will lose millions more because we are addicted - although the numbers are slowly shrinking. However, society has now moved to deem tobacco a nasty, vile thing. Again, read Genesis 2:1,2. It's our abuse of something that is bad - not the item.
It is also the manufacture of something natural into something unnatural - cocaine, meth, heroin, opium - that is the crime.
Even our administrations have turned the happy, sleepy little pot-heads ... into freaking terrorists! All the logic in the world doesn't make it so.

[kimbercuddles]

Very interesting, Odie. The way you phrased that was so justifying...and yet, it actually makes sense. To be totally honest with you...which I always am...I'm not sure how I feel about that. I'm glad that you clarified the fact that you would only be in favor of legalizing pot, if anything. Figured that's what you were saying, but never want to assume, you know?

[Wyoming53]

Originally Posted by kimbercuddles

Very interesting, Odie. The way you phrased that was so justifying...and yet, it actually makes sense. To be totally honest with you...which I always am...I'm not sure how I feel about that. I'm glad that you clarified the fact that you would only be in favor of legalizing pot, if anything. Figured that's what you were saying, but never want to assume, you know?

Wow. Powerful post. Not sure where to start. Wyody is not in favor of legalizing pot so much as he's in favor of making it right. If you can grow it on your place, then why is it illegal? There are those among us that have utilitzed for more years then we Americans have been here. Crap, we've only been here for 300 years. We were late comers.

It's hard to put this one to pen. Have to really think about it. But it's fun to try. haha

I've spent time with my brothers. I've spent time partaking in the old wonders of the world. Was it wrong? Depends on your belief. I don't think it was. Federal Marshal might, but I think he would ignore it.

[NHYRNUT]

Drugs are bad I for one am so Glad I never Inhaled When I was out in Seattle Poppies grow quite abundantly in some areas. I must say unprocessed they make one hell of a tea.

[Wyody]

Originally Posted by NHYRNUT

Drugs are bad I for one am so Glad I never Inhaled When I was out in Seattle Poppies grow quite abundantly in some areas. I must say unprocessed they make one hell of a tea.

Usually, where ever the Opium Poppies grow (the tall red ones), it has somehow been allowed even tho they are basically forbidden. There is a huge patch in Utah as well - and that patch is okay - so long as no one approaches them with a razor-blade to cut the slits out of which the goo forms which is the part that gets processed.
I still get a kick out of one of the old Cheech & Chong movies where Stacy Keach plays a cop-on-the-take who takes heavily to a hi-tech variety of weed ... and steadily, slowly turns into a lizard. I never cared for Stacy Keach at that point so, I liked it!

[NHYRNUT]

LOL Cheech & Chong Haven't heard of them in a while. I used to love Born in East LA, and Up in Smoke.