Illegal aliens

[NHYRNUT]

Why do you beleive they are allowed to stay?

[T.S.]

I think that every last one of them should be deported. I am a U.S. Citizen and had to go through more than a year of waiting, fill out a massive amount of paperwork, and pay around $1000 in fees to get my foreign wife into the country legally. Illegal aliens walking across the border and being allowed to stay really anger me.

[NHYRNUT]

Right and I totally agree. But the question I was asking is WHY are they allowed to stay? Why are they not deported? Why do you think they are not?

[T.S.]

I don't know, but any candidate that promised to try to deport them all could probably easily win the next presidential election.

[NHYRNUT]

I think there is a reason they are allowed to stay. I'm currious what other peoples thoughts are on it.

[MyAzi]

the key word is "Illegal" don't people get locked up for doing something illegal? Or at the very least, punished in some way? If people are doing something illegal in this country that are not supposed to be here then I say send them home. On the bus on the way home they should be given the paperwork and explaination on how to enter this country legally... The way both my parents did!!!

[Curious George]

I think one reason is as the population is getting older there will be more people on SS
Then working, an younger people are having smaller families not enough growth to support the system .from I under stand Europe has that problem average age of population is old . so they let the Illegal’s in they have kids there us citizens they become the New lower class that pay taxes to help SS an the do the jobs most people don’t want to do. An the coast to keep them out would be times 5 what is now , same way with sending them home would coast allot . I don’t agree with it but that’s the way I see it.

[T.S.]

Originally Posted by Curious George

an the do the jobs most people don’t want to do.

Many more people would want to do those jobs if illegal aliens were not lowering the wages. Some meat packing plant wages have been cut in half from what they have been in previous years. Meat prices have not gone down to match.

[Curious George]

Originally Posted by T.S.

Many more people would want to do those jobs if illegal aliens were not lowering the wages. Some meat packing plant wages have been cut in half from what they have been in previous years. Meat prices have not gone down to match.

Your Right the packing industry has just been tribal, you should see what they did in pork
You just about can’t raise pigs without a contract , they will pit one area of the country
Against another continually driving prices down . problem is you need a confinement building to raise them an they aren’t cheep not to mention the loan is 20 years ,
An you have a 1 to 3 year contract , look at cereal wheetes there might be .10 c worth of wheat in it . if wheat went up 1.00 a bu how much do you think wheetes would go up.
Some business are just plane exploiting them at the American worker’s expense, same with outsourcing some jobs should be but there are some jobs that are just not worth paying more for. I don’t know what the answer is but I do see it dragging down middle America . the gap between rich an the average Joe in getting to be to wide an something
Is Gona hahta give , an I don’t see the average Joe giving to much more. He’s running out of give .

[a1m1700]

I don't know but I'm sick to death of it and their are only a small handful of politicians willings to put a stop to this. I agree with the great Michael Savage he says this is an invasion.

[NHYRNUT]

Originally Posted by T.S.

if illegal aliens were not lowering the wages..

I think this is key. How much has the rate of pay gone up over the last 20 years?. And if allowed to go up at this rate for another 20 years, what would the average person make an hr ?
Remeber when candy bars where 25 cents? If the rate of pay was to contiue than the U.S. dollar would be worthless even sooner than it is suppose to be. Yes economics 101. When we went off the gold standard our money system was set to fail. Hence our pay rate raising so fast sence then. To stabalize the system, what better way than to bring in cheap labor. They force the scale down hence making our good ol dollar have a longer life before it gets replaced. Yes it will get replaced within the next 50 years unless drastic action is taken. Cheap labor falls into a temp fix but for how long. C.G. is partly right as well as the EURO is now born as well. I beleive it has more to do with economics than politics. But we are not ment to understand it. I know it sounds like a consperiacy thery, but think about it don't it make sence?

[NHYRNUT]

Everyone thinks I'm a wing nut now huh? That is why I asked I was wondering why other ppl thought they where allowed to stay. OK I'll shut up.

[RodFarlee]

Originally Posted by NHYRNUT

I think this is key. How much has the rate of pay gone up over the last 20 years?. And if allowed to go up at this rate for another 20 years, what would the average person make an hr ?
Remeber when candy bars where 25 cents? If the rate of pay was to contiue than the U.S. dollar would be worthless even sooner than it is suppose to be. Yes economics 101.

Econ 101 textbooks say that wage increases are inflationary only to the extent that wages increase faster than the rate of productivity growth. This has not been true since the 1979, and particularly not since 2000.

Originally Posted by NHYRNUT

When we went off the gold standard our money system was set to fail. Hence our pay rate raising so fast sence then. To stabalize the system, what better way than to bring in cheap labor. They force the scale down hence making our good ol dollar have a longer life before it gets replaced. Yes it will get replaced within the next 50 years unless drastic action is taken. Cheap labor falls into a temp fix but for how long. C.G. is partly right as well as the EURO is now born as well. I beleive it has more to do with economics than politics. But we are not ment to understand it. I know it sounds like a consperiacy thery, but think about it don't it make sence?

Much has been written on the gold standard, which I won't even try to summarize here. But the bottom line is that our economy had simply outgrown it even by 1940, and today is vastly larger than could be backed by metals, oil or perhaps any pool of fungible commodities.

There have also been many serious studies done of the economic effects of immigration, but I've never seen one which lends much support to your argument. Please post any you might know of.

[TalmudTemple]

Obviously the US is not going to deport millions of people..that's not going to happen...there's an old Arab saying : "the nose of the camel is already under the tent" (thus it's impossible to remove the 'camel' ), and I think that's true...

The US thinks that all illegals are also Mexican, they are not, they come from Honduras, Guatemala, Venezuela, Colombia and many many other countries...

One unpublicized fact here in Florida, it that there are many many illegals from Canada- particularly in SW Florida where they are 'undetected' because they are mostly white-skinned and speak English. Personally I know about a dozen Canadians in the Sarasota area that admit being here and working here illegally ! I know 2 women that work for the Ritz that are here illegally and have been here illegally for 5 years...one even bought a flat ! I know two English families that are here illegally, both bought a gift shop ! one of them has been here illegally for 20 years !!

The problem of illegal immigration started a long time ago, and it's not limited to people 'south of our border', that's patently false......although it seems that the visible majority are construed to be "Mexicans" in toto

[RAINBOWWAVES]

What i don't understand is why mexicans are allowed to stand on corners waiting for work. If they here illegally, why can't they be arrested? What happened to immigration activally searching out ppl with no green card? The DEA is always looking for illegal drugs so immigration should be doing the same.

[TalmudTemple]

First Rain, you may be a US citizen, but you don't understand our own laws. ...lol.....which is part and parcel of the entire immigration 'debate'.

Immigration, or enforcement is a federal responsibility.

Immigration is not a local police department responsibility. Police are charged with enforcing state and/or local laws, and protecting the public.

DEA is a federal agency, DEA looks for illegal DRUGS, not illegal immigrants...drugs FIRST, not illegal immigrants.....duh....that's their charge of responsibility.

This is not Nazi Germany. A policman can't stop some person willy nilly and ask " your papers please", and say stupid stuff like " your papers are not in order"......duh.....

Standing on the 'corner' is not 'illegal' in most US jurisdictions....double duh...

Whew......we should go back to school, preferably GRADE school and take a Civics course !

No wonder the rest of the world doesn't like us very much....we don't even know our own laws and history, but attempt to tell other cultures how to live and govern !

WOW

[RAINBOWWAVES]

Originally Posted by TalmudTemple

First Rain, you may be a US citizen, but you don't understand our own laws. ...lol.....which is part and parcel of the entire immigration 'debate'.

Immigration, or enforcement is a federal responsibility.

Immigration is not a local police department responsibility. Police are charged with enforcing state and/or local laws, and protecting the public.

DEA is a federal agency, DEA looks for illegal DRUGS, not illegal immigrants...drugs FIRST, not illegal immigrants.....duh....that's their charge of responsibility.

This is not Nazi Germany. A policman can't stop some person willy nilly and ask " your papers please", and say stupid stuff like " your papers are not in order"......duh.....

Standing on the 'corner' is not 'illegal' in most US jurisdictions....double duh...

Whew......we should go back to school, preferably GRADE school and take a Civics course !

No wonder the rest of the world doesn't like us very much....we don't even know our own laws and history, but attemtp to tell other cultures how to live and govern !

WOW

Where do you get off with the constant insults? Who do you think you are? I think you should back to citycaca...the ppl on this forum are gracious which you need to take some classes in...Listen, i would bet you couldn't shine my shoes on your best day. Stick to reading your Talmud.

[Curious George]

Originally Posted by TalmudTemple

First Rain, you may be a US citizen, but you don't understand our own laws. ...lol.....which is part and parcel of the entire immigration 'debate'.

Immigration, or enforcement is a federal responsibility.

Immigration is not a local police department responsibility. Police are charged with enforcing state and/or local laws, and protecting the public.

DEA is a federal agency, DEA looks for illegal DRUGS, not illegal immigrants...drugs FIRST, not illegal immigrants.....duh....that's their charge of responsibility.

This is not Nazi Germany. A policman can't stop some person willy nilly and ask " your papers please", and say stupid stuff like " your papers are not in order"......duh.....

Standing on the 'corner' is not 'illegal' in most US jurisdictions....double duh...

Whew......we should go back to school, preferably GRADE school and take a Civics course !

No wonder the rest of the world doesn't like us very much....we don't even know our own laws and history, but attempt to tell other cultures how to live and govern !

WOW

Hey Mud where do you get off talking down to these people like your some kind
Of expert know it all I sure hope you don’t talk to people outside the usa the way you talk here I wouldn’t like us either after talking to you

[RAINBOWWAVES]

Originally Posted by Curious George

Hey Mud where do you get off talking down to these people like your some kind
Of expert know it all I sure hope you don’t talk to people outside the usa the way you talk here I wouldn’t like us either after talking to you

Thank you..it is called arrogance and who needs it..I don't and won't be answering to any more of his nasty posts or threads he starts...He must be a plant form citycaca to come here and pick someone to harass and insult.

[Curious George]

Originally Posted by RAINBOWWAVES

Thank you..it is called arrogance and who needs it..I don't and won't be answering to any more of his nasty posts or threads he starts...He must be a plant form citycaca to come here and pick someone to harass and insult.

Well goofing an joking around the way we do is one thing, an anybody else is welcome to join in . But when you gota talk down to people an personally insult people that just rubs me the wrong way.! I don’t know if it is my place to do that or not but that’s the way I am . weather I gota jump in an nock a few heads or type a few lines .

[RAINBOWWAVES]

Originally Posted by Curious George

Well goofing an joking around the way we do is one thing, an anybody else is welcome to join in . But when you gota talk down to people an personally insult people that just rubs me the wrong way.! I don’t know if it is my place to do that or not but that’s the way I am . weather I gota jump in an nock a few heads or type a few lines .

well i very much appreciate your back..I don't think i deserve that kind of **** especially from a newbie. I have been here from the get go...i mean that guy came out swinging and tried to hit below the belt for Gods Sake!

[Sekretgardengal]

Our ancestors came here and had to go through so much nonsense before putting their feet onto US soil.

[NHYRNUT]

Originally Posted by RodFarlee

Econ 101 textbooks say that wage increases are inflationary only to the extent that wages increase faster than the rate of productivity growth. This has not been true since the 1979, and particularly not since 2000.



Much has been written on the gold standard, which I won't even try to summarize here. But the bottom line is that our economy had simply outgrown it even by 1940, and today is vastly larger than could be backed by metals, oil or perhaps any pool of fungible commodities.

There have also been many serious studies done of the economic effects of immigration, but I've never seen one which lends much support to your argument. Please post any you might know of.

I don't know of any. I was thinking what I was told in High school economics about the gold Standard. and got to thinking about how our Pay scales keep going up and up. Not that I'm complaining. LOL But after thinking unless the payscales where kept down somehow in about 20 years would we not be making $50 an HR and paying $5 to $10 a loaf of bread? I mean when I started work my first job Paid $8 an hr and that was great money as most at the time paid $6 an hr unless you where fast food that paid about $4.50 at that time I think. and now I know HIgh school drop outs like fresh drop outs, that start out making 12 to 15 dollars an hr. that means in about 20 years give or take the starting scale has almost doubled correct? So wouldn't this have an impact on the worth of the dollar? I mean if I make $50 an hr in 20 years would that same dollar not go as far in other nations? I mean if I make $400 a day that dollar would not be worth the same as the dollar is today would it? So in order to keep prices down and the dollar value more stable bring in cheap labor and they will drive the hrly rate down there by keeping it more stable per say. I don't claim to know if this is even possible it was just a thery of mine. Maybe it is just my way of thinking but to me it makes sence. But I have nothing to back it up aside from life exsamples and my Train of thought. But this does make sence correct it isn't just me? I know it is out there but hey so where cell phones 30 years ago.

[RodFarlee]

Extended neighbors of mine were deported a couple years ago. Anyone interested in this issue should read about their case. Their "problem" was that they tried to comply with the immigration laws (albeit a bit late). Those who don't, seem to have no problem staying here. There's definitely a disconnect between what the laws say and what our government does, which leads to the obvious question: are our laws what we say or what we do?

[Sekretgardengal]

Everything and everybody should be legal here.

[Sekretgardengal]

Oops, I don't mean everything should be legal. If everything was legal we would all have the munchies right now.

[RodFarlee]

Originally Posted by NHYRNUT

I don't know of any. I was thinking what I was told in High school economics about the gold Standard.... dollar would not be worth the same as the dollar is today would it?

It is perhaps more useful to think in terms of what an hour of labor is worth in terms of buying power? This has slowly risen over the last 30 years, although not since 2000. In the long term, this is driven by productivity; in the short term, by fiscal policy.

In terms of international buying power, exchange rates are driven by the trade balance, which is in turn tied to productivity. Most forecasts predict a continuing decline in the value of the dollar (which, to the growing extent that our purchases are imported, is inflationary).

Originally Posted by NHYRNUT

So in order to keep prices down and the dollar value more stable bring in cheap labor and they will drive the hrly rate down there by keeping it more stable per say. I don't claim to know if this is even possible it was just a thery of mine. Maybe it is just my way of thinking but to me it makes sence. But I have nothing to back it up aside from life exsamples and my Train of thought. But this does make sence correct it isn't just me? I know it is out there but hey so where cell phones 30 years ago.

There have been serious economic studies of the effects of immigration on wages. The most cited are the work at University of Chicago School of Economics and the National Bureau of Economic Research (Harvard), and notably criticised by Paul Krugman, suggests that immigration has lowered the wages of U.S. high school dropouts by perhaps 8%, but slightly raised the buying power of high school and college graduates (except perhaps computer programmers who are competing with a large pool of H-1B visa holders). The overall effect is a small gain in average incomes. This is debated, but it appears the net effect is small.

So it isn't at all clear that immigration has driven down wages overall. And it certainly isn't clear that there's such a "plan", rather than the much simpler explanation that million of individuals each make migration decisions which are in their personal interest.

We all know how "hot" the immigration issue is; if there were such evidence, it would be trumpeted. So it has been sought, but not found.

[NHYRNUT]

Originally Posted by RodFarlee

It is perhaps more useful to think in terms of what an hour of labor is worth in terms of buying power? This has slowly risen over the last 30 years, although not since 2000. In the long term, this is driven by productivity; in the short term, by fiscal policy.

In terms of international buying power, exchange rates are driven by the trade balance, which is in turn tied to productivity. Most forecasts predict a continuing decline in the value of the dollar (which, to the growing extent that our purchases are imported, is inflationary).



There have been serious economic studies of the effects of immigration on wages. The most cited are the work at University of Chicago School of Economics and the National Bureau of Economic Research (Harvard), and notably criticised by Paul Krugman, suggests that immigration has lowered the wages of U.S. high school dropouts by perhaps 8%, but slightly raised the buying power of high school and college graduates (except perhaps computer programmers who are competing with a large pool of H-1B visa holders). The overall effect is a small gain in average incomes. This is debated, but it appears the net effect is small.

So it isn't at all clear that immigration has driven down wages overall. And it certainly isn't clear that there's such a "plan", rather than the much simpler explanation that million of individuals each make migration decisions which are in their personal interest.

We all know how "hot" the immigration issue is; if there were such evidence, it would be trumpeted. So it has been sought, but not found.

OH so I'm thinking along the track that has been followed up on and didn't even know it. I need a Degree. LOL then I'll get paid to think about Dead ends LOL. Thanks.

[RodFarlee]

Originally Posted by NHYRNUT

OH so I'm thinking along the track that has been followed up on and didn't even know it. I need a Degree. LOL then I'll get paid to think about Dead ends LOL. Thanks.

A well-aimed jibe at economists, in particular!

The effects of globalization (out-sourcing, etc.) are clearly larger than immigration, and is also debated, but the bottom line is similar. This issue also is an "emotional hot button", because there are disproportionate local and regional impacts (Detroit, etc). But again it's not so clear that it's been bad for the average American, nor that we could do much to stop it even if it were.

[a1m1700]

Originally Posted by NHYRNUT